Living Changed Podcast
As I have stepped out in my faith, I have found that our stories can make a lasting impact on the people around us. By stepping out in boldness, God's glory can and will be shown to others if at first we are obedient to tell our story in the first place. I first started this podcast to give people a voice to tell their stories in hopes that it could encourage and give hope to those who need to hear it. As I have had more personal experiences with the Lord and His power, I also found that I could step out and tell my own stories of who He is. The Lord uses our struggles, trials, and victories to show that you can and will make it through it with Him by your side. I give all the glory to God for this podcast and these episodes. I hope even if you’re not sure about who God is, His character, glory, mercy, and love will be shown to you through each episode.
Living Changed Podcast
Ali's Testimony Part 2 - The Fisherman's Perspective
In this follow-up to Ali's powerful testimony, we revisit his story through the lens of the one who patiently waited and faithfully cast his line. This week Ali is joined by his friend Dan Ginn, the man who God used to reach him with the gospel. Together, they recount the story of how their paths crossed, the hunting trips, the many Bible studies they would attend together, and all the in-between moments leading up to Ali's conversion to Christianity.
Hear the story from both perspectives, the fisherman and the Muslim fish who was caught. Just goes to show that even if we feel like God isn't moving, He really is.
"Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."- Matthew 4:19
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What's up you guys and welcome to the Living Change Podcast. I'm your host, kimberly. Here we share real stories that shine a spotlight on God's glory and reminds us that Jesus changes lives. My prayer is that today's story encourages your faith and fills you with hope. Let's dive in. This week I am here with my brother, ali. If you haven't listened to the last episode, I had Tommy Port on and he briefly just told us a little bit of Ollie's story. The cool part is that I didn't know that Ollie would be on for the next episode, but I just through listening in that short little portion of his testimony that Tommy told I really really was just like you know what I got to have this guy on, will you ask him? And Tommy went ahead and asked him and he agreed to be on. So, ali, it's really glad to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:So Ali comes from a Muslim background, he is from Iran and he is different from anyone I've ever had on, and so it's just really cool to have someone in a different culture on to tell their side of the story. So, ali, can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what that looked like?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I was born in the Islamic Republic of Iran and we grew up there until I was about age five or six when we left. So one of my earliest memories as a child living in Iran was a memory of darkness. I remember the sirens would come on. It would sound to us Westerners as maybe tornado or storm sirens, and in Iran the sirens were very loud. I lived in the city of Tehran. They were terrifying the sound of them. We would run into the basement of the buildings we lived in and we would turn out all the lights and we'd sit inside those basements waiting for the sirens to stop. And the sirens in Iran didn't mean storms or tornadoes, they meant bombings. It was the Iran-Iraq war. It was the 80s and my hometown of Tehran was being bombed by none other than Saddam Hussein and his military in the Iran-Iraq War. So when we were going into those basements we were sitting in darkness. Now the darkness that was physical was all too much representative of a very spiritual darkness. If you think about it, iraqis are predominantly Shiite Muslim, iranians are predominantly Shiite Muslim, so the Iran-Iraq war was Shiite Muslim killing Shiite Muslim. So we really sat in darkness.
Speaker 2:Now it reminds me of chapter 4 of Matthew, when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison. In verse 12, it says he departed to Galilee and, leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying the land of Zebulun, the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, galilee of the Gentiles, the Jordan, galilee of the Gentiles. The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death, light has dawned. So we were well beyond the Jordan. This says by the sea, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan. We were well beyond that, in Tehran, iran, and we were in a Galilee of the Gentiles, if you will, but in Iran, and we were in a Galilee of the Gentiles, if you will, but in Iran, and we sat in darkness. That's probably my earliest memory as an Iranian.
Speaker 1:And so what brought you to New York? Because Ali spent a lot of time in New York. Didn't you grow up in New York originally, then?
Speaker 2:Yep. So you know this text says the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light. Obviously it's about when Jesus was walking the earth in Galilee. During that time In Iran in the 80s, we weren't hearing much about Jesus preached at all. And so the Lord took us out of Iran, brought us to America. To make a long story short, we ended up settling down in upstate New York where I would grow up a child of two worlds.
Speaker 2:I'd go to school with all the kids, learn to speak English, like I do today, but at home I would be, you know, with my parents and my sisters, and it was a very much a Iranian household. It was a Muslim household. I remember my mom telling me my son we're no longer in the Middle East. This is not a Muslim country we're living in now, and so you need to be careful when people try to tell you about their Messiah, don't listen to them. You're better than that. You're a Muslim.
Speaker 2:You know my mom felt she was protecting me from Christianity, but you know there's really no protection. The Lord is able to save to the uttermost. My mom would spray me with all the Jesus repellent she could find if you will, but the Lord was able to break through. Now, right after that text, where it says upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death, light has dawned, there's the Lord breaking through. He preaches in the next verse. It's verse 17 of Matthew 4. From that time, jesus began to preach and to say repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And that would be what would happen in my life. Is the Lord? Jesus would break through all those layers that I had in my life, all those walls of protection against the message of the gospel. The Lord would break through, get to my heart and save my soul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Ali comes from a background in New York, but he also comes from Wall Street. He worked in Wall Street. For how long?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. So my mom would raise me as a proud Muslim and I would have a goal to remain a good Muslim and to try to be as good a Muslim as I could be. And I would add to that a second goal to become the wealthiest Muslim that ever lived. So that goal took me to Wall Street, and it was the October 2007 time of the Dow Jones hitting its peak. When I set foot on Wall Street, I thought my dreams were within grasp and I thought this is it. This is now going to happen. I'm going to become, from here on, I'll become the wealthiest Muslim that ever lived.
Speaker 2:Except I didn't know that Jesus was directing and leading. You know that verse after verse 17,. It says, from that time, jesus began to preach and to say repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It says right after that that he called followers and told them follow me and I'll make you fishers of men. So we see, in one verse, jesus is preaching repent. In the next verse, he calls Simon and Andrew, his brother, to follow him. And that's what would happen is the Lord would direct in my life that I would run into fishermen, I being a Muslim fish. So I set foot on Wall Street, but the Lord changed the waters.
Speaker 2:The financial meltdown began and that would, within seven months or so, cause me to leave Wall Street and leave my dreams and to have to go live somewhere else. Now remember how God did it was. He used a mentor I had on Wall Street who told me look, this is a meltdown, you got to get out of here, go work somewhere else, come back later. And I put in applications. I heard from a brokerage firm out in Omaha, nebraska, of all places, and they called me and said we'll interview you, we'll hire you, but do you realize, if you come to work for us, you'll be living and working in Omaha? I said to them yeah, that's fine, you can interview me, omaha's fine.
Speaker 2:Well, as an arrogant New Yorker, I think I didn't realize where Omaha was. They did interview me, they did hire me and I ended up having to get on a plane and to fly out to Omaha, nebraska, to live and work there. Well, this was really interesting. Here I land in humble Omaha, nebraska, where you find a lot of very humble, lowly saints and followers of Jesus, and I arrived as a proud Persian, iranian, muslim, new Yorker Wall Street fish. Help me, god. And yet this is the way Jesus was leading. When he said to them, follow me, it meant he would lead. He said follow me and I'll make you fishers of men.
Speaker 1:And so what were your expectations going into this? I mean, you left everything behind in New York and you're now moving into a totally different state that is totally different from what you've been in for so long. And so what were your expectations going into living in Omaha?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:So I was a scared fish here. I was having to kind of leave my dreams. I wasn't giving up on them. I told myself I'll always go back to wall street one day to continue and pursue my dreams. This is just a detour. I'm stuck in Omaha for a season, until the meltdown settles on Wall Street. That was my expectation, was I would go back to New York. Well, that never happened, and it's been like 14, 15 years since then.
Speaker 2:So the Lord had different plans. He was directing me for the sake of my soul. He was leading me to Omaha, where I would encounter the gospel, where I would encounter followers. Now, another expectation I had, in a word, was hillbillies. Here I come as a New Yorker. I didn't even know where Omaha really was. I arrive in Omaha and I thought this is hillbilly land.
Speaker 2:Now, my bosses on Wall Street were the ones that had put this idea into my mind. They had said to me if you're going, first of all, don't leave New York. Ali, nobody leaves New York. New York, this is the financial capital of the world. This is where people try to come in finance. You're going to leave the capital of finance and go to Omaha, nebraska. That's not right. One of my bosses said if you go there, you'll become a hillbilly. It won't be long before you're climbing trees, sitting up there all day in the treetops with a six-pack of beer and a piece of grass coming out of your mouth in between your teeth. You'll become a hillbilly fast. I don't know why he believed that I would end up living in Nebraska for over 10 years and never see a person in a tree with a six pack of beer and a grass coming out of their mouth.
Speaker 2:But I remember when I arrived in Nebraska I was spooked. I was a scared fish. One, I had to leave my dreams in New York and I just couldn't wait to get back to New York. And two, I didn't want to become a hillbilly, so I was just at such a disadvantage to getting saved. I was just at such a disadvantage to getting saved.
Speaker 2:You might say the people who had to witness to me would have never signed up to witness to. A proud Persian, iranian, muslim, new Yorker Wall Street fish who had to leave his dreams is really angry about being stuck in Nebraska and is afraid that we're all hillbillies. Nobody would have signed up to witness to me. But you know what Jesus wasn't afraid. He says follow me. And then he says and I will make you fishers of men. Which means despite all odds and opposition, he will do it. And that's exactly what he would do in my story. That very week I arrived, one of the people who was just recently hired at the brokerage firm alongside me there was about 20 to 40 of us. The number fluctuated. It was a new hire training class. They would bring new people in and they would train us. One of the people out of that maximum of 40 people would be a key individual who would witness to me.
Speaker 2:Now here I was a scared and spooked fish not wanting to become a hillbilly. I remember I had resolved don't make too many friends, ollie. Don't befriend anybody. You don't want to become a hillbilly. You're not going to be here long anyway. You're going to go back to New York. You're going to pursue your dreams. Don't get comfortable here in Nebraska.
Speaker 2:And I remember I was kind of priding myself on the outer appearance as a New Yorker and as a Persian, as an Iranian, as a New Yorker I was very well dressed. So I looked at the other brokers that were new hires, just like myself, and I was dressed better than them and I prided myself that this must mean I'm the best person here. I didn't understand the scriptures, I didn't know that God ponders the heart, that you might dress well but you might be rotten inside and God can see that and see you for who you are. So I thought, well, I'm the best dressed, I'm the best person here. But I noticed some guy who was dressed better than me that caught my eye. It was the lure that attracted this fish, if you will, was that, as well as I had dressed, someone had outdressed me. In hillbilly land, omaha, nebraska.
Speaker 1:And it's funny how the Lord just uses these things that kind of trigger our pride, right, it's like, oh, all of a sudden, like I'm, I'm not the best dress anymore. It's now this guy and what's this guy?
Speaker 2:have that, I don't have, you know yeah, you know, most guys typically don't care. But just the way that I had been raised and I had two sisters, you know, my twin sister would sometimes tell me in high school or in grade school, if you're wearing that to school today, you're not my brother, you know. So they had just kind of like had a military devotion of dressing nice and that rubbed off on me. So when I was by the time I was on Wall Street I actually enjoyed dressing nice. But here I was in hillbilly Nebraska and this guy I don't know is outdressing me. So what would happen is I would notice him every day and notice that this guy's dressed better than me, and what would happen is I would realize you know what this is happening. Every day I'm losing. But this guy doesn't even know there's a competition and this would just kind of crush my pride, I remember. Eventually I would look at him and think, ali, don't let it get on your nerves, don't let it bother you so much. Look at his shoes, his belt, his shirt, his pants. The entire outfit is perfectly color coordinated. No straight guy would ever do that.
Speaker 2:So in my mind as a Muslim, I was writing him off as gay. Like he's a homosexual, ignore him. And this is because, for Muslims, there's no gospel to gay people. It's basically, if they catch anybody behaving in that way or engaging in any kind of behavior and homosexuality, they're executed. In the Middle East, it's us who has the gospel to preach salvation to any sinner. You get saved, whatever your area of struggle. Through the same Jesus, he'll show you how to walk in newness of life. In Islam, no, it's a death sentence.
Speaker 2:So here's the deal was I was trying to write off this guy as gay so I could ignore the fact that he was defeating me in a dressing competition he didn't even know about. Well, here's the deal was he was not gay, and not only that, he was a fisherman. He was a follower of Christ. And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, simon called Peter, and Andrew, his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. Then he said to them follow me and I will make you fishers of men. They immediately left their nets and followed him.
Speaker 2:This guy I'd run into was a fisherman. He was a follower of Jesus who had left things in his life to follow Jesus. More perfectly, this happened to be the job he had gotten at that point of time in his life and right when he's starting in the class. I'm starting in the class, and so it was as if the Lord led me straight out of the deep, dark waters of New York, where I was not running into followers, followers and brought me to the shallow, humble waters of Nebraska and led me right into this guy's nets. And what's funny is this guy's name was the same name as one of the original 12 followers of Christ. His name was Thomas.
Speaker 1:How did the friendship end up coming to fruition, like, how did you guys become friends?
Speaker 2:One day I came out into the cafeteria with my lunch tray full of food and I saw him sitting there by himself at a table and I said to myself, what if he outdresses me just because? Like what if he's not gay but he still outdresses me? That would be crazy. I gotta find out what the story is. You know, this is like a peek inside the thoughts of a fish, right, and it's like. This is so strange. This is what this guy was thinking. Well, yeah, fish are strange. You know, they're underneath the water, they're in a different environment. The Lord says follow me, I will make you fishers of man. The beauty and the comedy of the stories are that Jesus knows what the fish is thinking. And so here's what Jesus was doing was using Thomas, dressing well, as a lure to lead me right into his nets, and it worked perfectly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I remember thinking to myself I got to find out if this Thomas guy is gay or not, and if he's not, that would just be weird that he outdressed me. So I to him. I joined him for lunch. I'm watching him like a hawk, seeing if I can pick out any gay mannerisms. He's not acting gay. I'm like what's the story with this guy? I'm eating my lunch he's actually just reading a book and I realized wait a minute. I don't know if he's finished his lunch or what, but he's reading. Instead of eating based on what he's reading, I of eating Based on what he's reading. I can know what kind of person he is. And so I said to myself ask him, ask him what he reads. I said, hey, can I ask you what you're reading? What is this? And he says, oh, these are books on evangelism. And I said what's that? You know I like to joke. It's almost as if Jesus was in heaven saying you're about to find out you know, so the Lord had led and orchestrated all this.
Speaker 2:So Thomas told me what evangelism was, and I had no idea that I was now a part of evangelism. In fact, the Lord had led me right into this guy's nets, as if to say, oh, you're reading on evangelism, try this fish straight from the waters of New York Fresh, just for you, try this guy out. And so that's how we became friends. I realized he's not gay, but he crushes me in outdressing me. And you know what, maybe, maybe, if I'm going to have one friend in Nebraska that's not a hillbilly, maybe I'll let it be this guy. And so it's like well, really, fish, you've just chosen that your one friend in Nebraska is going to be a fisherman, you know. So the Lord has a tremendous sense of humor how he works. And there's a lot more funny stuff here. For instance, with Thomas, I was never going to outdress him. I would get to know him more and more, and after I got saved, I would get to know him more and more. And I would learn about Thomas that he was the type of guy who would buy a shirt, take it to a tailor, pay extra money to have it tailored to fit him perfectly and tell the tailor please add some flair, some ruffle, some flair to this shirt. So it's a one of a kind who does that? Nobody, especially no straight guy. I wasn't going to outdress him if my life depended on it and that was the lure that led me right into his net.
Speaker 2:You know, the moral of this story, or the application of the scripture here, is not actually that people should dress differently. We should dress modestly as Christians. But the application here is what we see in another gospel of the same part, where he's calling Peter and Andrew. In another gospel he tells them I will make you become fishers of men. You know, too often we think, lord, not me, not me.
Speaker 2:What would I have that a fish and I would have in common? Well, thomas and I had in common that we dressed well. Jesus tells them I'll make you become fishers of men. What he's saying is you don't have to go become a different person, just follow me, imitate me, follow me, I will make you to become fishers of men. We get to keep our individuality. We get to keep our personality. We get to keep dressing well if we like it. Whatever's not sin can remain, and the Lord will actually use that. He used Thomas's dressing nice to lure me and to bring me right into his net and I took the bait, hook, line and sinker and Thomas and I became friends.
Speaker 1:And I love that because truly I feel like that's how the Lord can also help us in that being that person to draw them in is the commonality. Maybe it's a hobby, or maybe it is dressing well, maybe it's shoes, like whatever it is that you can find with that person. You're able to kind of draw them to you because one we should be, you know living differently, but then again that's the love of Jesus coming through us to them. So, going back to the story, really quick, you and Thomas, you start this friendship and so how does he continue to, I guess, live that out with you? Does he invite you to places you know? Things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question and amen to what you're saying. You know it could be where you're grocery shopping. It could be the gym you use. That's what you're saying. You know it could be where you're grocery shopping. It could be the gym you use, that's what you have in common with fish, and that they're running into your fishnets. Say, we gotta be aware of these things. Thomas became aware almost immediately. Hey look, this guy who's joining me for lunch is a fish, and he'd been studying evangelism, so it was just perfect. It was like oh, you had the lesson for the day, Now you're going to have the actual workshop.
Speaker 2:You know he and I begin to talk and what would happen is we have to follow Jesus in practicality as well as in doctrine. Paul would tell the church in Corinth follow me, as I also follow Christ. That's 1 Corinthians 4 and 1 Corinthians 11, verse 1. Twice Paul says follow me. Some translations say imitate me as I also imitate Christ. So Thomas was doing that, trying to live that out. There's a doctrinal piece to that and there's an application and action. You know an actional piece to that and Thomas was doing that too.
Speaker 2:One of the most practical things about following Jesus to catch fish is you got to go where the fish are. So Thomas would eat with me. You know Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners. So Thomas was following Jesus's example. Another application was Thomas would come to my house. Jesus said Zacchaeus, come down from there, for I must stay in your house today or tonight, he said. And so Jesus went into Zacchaeus' house, right, and Thomas would come into my house. One of the most simple parts is are we going to go where the fish are? And Thomas went where I was so he could fish me out, right.
Speaker 2:And as he's doing these things, he's also given opportunity to follow Jesus in another actional aspect, which is service. The son of man, jesus, did not come to be served, but to serve. As we follow him, we're going to have to be willing to serve. And so well, wait a minute. This guy is a proud, arrogant Muslim, new Yorker Wall Street fish. He thinks he doesn't need anybody. He's come from New York, he doesn't want anybody's help. How in the world is Thomas going to serve Jesus by helping this fish with anything? Well, the Lord provides the opportunity.
Speaker 2:Thomas very quickly realized about a big mistake I had made in my New York arrogance. I remember at one point Thomas came up to me and said hey, ali, I heard you're out here without a car. You just flew here. You don't have a car. I said yeah, thomas, I didn't bring my car, I flew out here. And you know, in New York I don't bring my car into New York City, I leave it out of state with my parents. So in New York City I just use the metro. And so my thinking had been that when I fly to Omaha since Omaha is a major city, even though it's hail Billy land, it's a major city they must have a subway. So I'll just use the subway. And that's as funny and that's as foolish as it sounds, and fish oftentimes don't have a clue.
Speaker 2:And I had arrived in Nebraska to find out. Not only is there no underground subway, but the public transportation in Omaha was not good. You could wait a long time for a bus, and Thomas realized this. There was his chance to serve to follow Jesus even in that pattern. So he came up to me and said Ali, listen, I want you to know, since you're out here without a car, I want you to call me when you need to go somewhere. In fact, ali, in Nebraska cabs are expensive. A cabbie might make his entire money for the day out of one fare, so cab rides are $50 minimum in Nebraska. This was before the days of Uber and Lyft.
Speaker 2:And so Thomas said don't ever call a cab, just call me. He might as well have said to me I'm following Jesus, Ali, so I'm your servant, I'm here to serve. I'm following Jesus, Ali, so I'm your servant, I'm here to serve, even as Jesus came to serve, Call me Now. These things, they're humbling to us, but they work. It's Jesus' method and Jesus' ways are always perfect. Case in point when somebody gives you a ride, you have to listen to them. You're stuck along for the entire ride, from point A to B till you reach your destination. Whoever's giving you a ride can preach whatever they want to preach, and Thomas wasted no opportunity. Anytime he gave me a ride, it's either we're listening to his Christian radio or I'm listening to him give the gospel. And this is the pattern of following Jesus, serving and being willing to go where the fish are, even to give a fish a ride and make him a captive audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not too good, you know, we're not too good to go to these places just to meet with people, to just meet them where they are. You know, and I feel like Thomas is that type of person where he just meets people with where they are and he just rolled with it, no matter where you stood, he was just going to be there for you as a friend. And I just want to point out something really quick To someone who may not know Jesus, to someone who's listening to this just know that this isn't a manipulation tactic, right, ollie? Like this isn't something like oh, this is just to manipulate someone to to follow him. No, no, no. Like this is meeting someone where they are, loving them through where they are and then giving them the truth. You know, maybe you can speak to that too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. You know we could look at it as you know what kind of sordid game is this? He's a fisherman trying to catch fish. Come on, please. It's like look, jesus is using an illustration that represents all these different aspects that I've been pointing out how you got to go where the fish are, how you have to be willing to serve, how you have to be willing to follow Christ and emulate these things. It's not that fishing or soul winning is a sordid game or evil in any sense. In fact, it is the greatest labor we've been given. This side of heaven is to be a fisher of men. If anyone in hell, or in Sheol or Hades, which is the term for the temporal place of the dead, where they're suffering and they're waiting to be cast into the lake of fire on the day of judgment at the great white throne, if anybody in hell could speak right now, they would say I wish someone had fished me out you know if they could tell the truth of the matter.
Speaker 2:So this is actually for the benefit of the fish. If Thomas did nothing, he was still going to go to heaven as a believer. It was I who was going to go to hell, and so the motive and the entire tone of the game is one of selflessness, and the motive is for sake of the fish I'm coming fishing. In fact, when you study the scriptures, you find that water is representative of death, one of the things that we see in the Old Testament. The flood comes. It was a death sentence that flood was, and all those unbelievers drowned in that water.
Speaker 2:Well, here comes Jesus, walking on water, so as to demonstrate he is Lord and has power even over death. And he tells them follow me, I'll make you fishers of men. And they would fish people out of death and into life. In other words, people would come out of the water of drowning and death and judgment and they would come into the spirit of life in Jesus Christ, which is air or breath or spirit. That's part of the analogy here that Jesus is using is that we're going to catch people out of this lake of death.
Speaker 2:Now also, we have the flood in the Old Testament, in Genesis. But there's another body of water coming for all eternity, that's the lake of fire, and anyone who doesn't get saved will be cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. And there's another depiction it's a lake, it's another body of water, if you will. In that point it's fire, but it's another body. And so these things are illustrative. And what we do in catching men is actually very much humanitarian, for the sake of their soul for all eternity, and it's all for the love of God, who sent his son to die for them that they might get caught out of death and into life.
Speaker 1:That's really well said, yeah. So what happened after? He's telling you you know more about the gospel, things like that.
Speaker 2:So I'm a captive audience when he gives me a ride and I begin to like this guy, despite the gospel he preaches. Here he is serving me, here he is befriending me, here he is outdressing me, me. He always had my respect for that and I thought to myself you know what, if I'm gonna have one friend in Nebraska be this guy? And he's continued to be my friend. And I thought to myself eventually another thought, as he continued to be my friend, which is if I could do one thing for him, what would it be? I know I should do him a favor and make him realize Jesus is not the Son of God.
Speaker 2:Now here's a distinction between the two religions of Islam and Christianity. It is the greatest distinction and it is the distinction on which every human soul will either enter heaven or go to hell. It's the distinction of is Jesus Lord the Son of God or isn't he? Is Jesus Lord the Son of God or isn't he? Christianity says he is and Islam and all other religions say he isn't. And you can have religions that say he is, but then they add all this other stuff to it that is contrary to Jesus being Savior. So, by and large, you get is salvation faith in Jesus plus nothing, or isn't it? And Islam says no, it's not faith in Jesus, he's not the son of God. It's do your works, and do good works more than bad works. That's what Islam teaches.
Speaker 2:So I thought, from my perspective as a Muslim, this guy's wrong about his Jesus. I like him, though. Let me do him a favor and tell him he's wrong about his Jesus. The irony of this was I'm trying to do him a favor, he's trying to do me the eternal favor of seeing my soul saved through Jesus, and I said I like him, so let me do him a favor. Wait a minute. He loved me because he loved Jesus, whom he was following, enough to spend time with me. So the irony here is I'm saying I like this guy, let me do him a favor. Well, he loved me, as Jesus loved sinners. He was emulating, trying to follow in Jesus's footsteps. Not that he loved to the same degree Jesus's love is perfect. He laid down his life.
Speaker 2:Here's Thomas serving me, emulating Jesus, following Jesus, and was willing to do me the ultimate favor of preaching Jesus to me that I might be saved. So I said to myself let me tell him, let me tell him, let me do him a favor. Thomas, listen to me. I've been trying to tell you look, your God is the same as mine. It's just this Jesus business and you're wrong about Jesus.
Speaker 2:I don't believe I need to believe. I don't think I need to believe he's the son of God. I think I could just believe in Islam that Jesus is merely a prophet. He isn't the son of God. And I can go to heaven one day just by being a good person. So, thomas, because I like you, I'm going to do you a favor. Okay, I want to test your God and to show you your God is the same as mine and I don't need Jesus.
Speaker 2:And then I got silent. Thomas had come to my apartment I remember he's sitting on the couch there to my left when I said this to him and he's come where the fish are, and here the fish has poked his head out of water and sparked something at the fisherman. I want to test your God, show you he's the same. And I realized my big mouth had outrun my plans. I didn't know how I was going to test Jesus, and so I was trying to quickly think and I thought, hey, thomas, you know how companies will tell you like you can do a free trial for two weeks. Well, could I do like a one month free trial with your God and show you you're wrong about him?
Speaker 2:And this bothered him because Thomas was the type of follower who would wake up and dig into God's Word. And we know, as the scripture says, thou shalt not test the Lord, thy God. In fact I've been reading from Matthew 4 on this podcast and Jesus has said this to the devil in Matthew 4 that it is written thou shalt not test or tempt the Lord, thy God. And he says Away with you Satan. So here it was telling Thomas I want to tempt and test your Jesus, your God, and he didn't like that. But the good news about following is, when we encounter obstacles and difficulties from the fish, we shouldn't turn and run. What was happening was, even though it seemed I was opposing, I was actually biting down hard on some bait here on the lure. And they tell you when you go fishing, if you feel the fish has bitten on the lure, on the line, you must pull to hook that line into the lips of that fish, into his teeth, and be able to reel him in. I was biting on something here. I was getting upset, saying I want to do you a favor and prove you you're wrong about Jesus, which means I felt strongly in my heart about something and I was opening my heart to an area in which I felt strongly. Well, isn't that the terms on which God saves people on that kind of turf? Hey, here's your heart. You feel strongly about it. Let's talk about that. And what if your heart turns and you feel that Jesus is Lord and you feel strongly about that? And that's exactly what Jesus was going to do.
Speaker 2:Through this challenge I put to Thomas, I want to test your God and show you he's the same. Thomas was upset at first, but before he left, jesus gave him some more bait to throw out to me. Thomas said to me hey, ali, listen, and this is, while he's putting his shoes on, on my doorstep, getting ready to leave. We had hung out for the rest of the day or the rest of that time, and he's about to leave. And the Lord gives him this great idea. Thomas goes hey, ali, you know you say you want to test my God. You're not just cheap, talk, right? I said no, I'm not. And he said well, great, because I'm being reminded here that there's one part of the Bible where God says test me, whereas in other parts of the Bible God says thou shall not test me or don't test me. In this part he says test me in this. I said, really, thomas, he goes yeah, ali, I wouldn't expect you to know this, but we're not supposed to test God. Well, this part God says test me in this.
Speaker 2:He says to Israel in Malachi, chapter three and incidentally, this is just a few pages before Matthew four, even though it's 400 years apart. It's just a few pages apart in our Bible where God says to, through Malachi, to Israel, in chapter three, verse 8, will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say In what way have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings you are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed me even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be food in my house and try me now in this, says the Lord of hosts. And try me now in this, says the Lord of hosts. Some translations say and test me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it. Thomas, read that to me on my doorstep and you know that last part open the windows of heaven, pour out for you such blessing room, not enough to receive it.
Speaker 2:I thought, whoa, I like this challenge. My Wall Street ears heard that and I said well, this sounds like an interesting test. I didn't tell Thomas, but I was upset that I was stuck in Nebraska, unable to realize my dreams, and I thought to myself well, how interesting the test here looks, like I might be able to get rich through this. And so obviously my motive was not in the right place. But you see, jesus never puts our fishing, our evangelism, to be dependent on the motives of the fish. It's based on his motives to save and whether we're willing to go with the motive of jesus to save fish. So it didn't matter what my motives were. God was going to work. Thomas was following. Jesus was leading to make of him a fisher of men.
Speaker 2:I said to thomas thomas, thomas, tell me okay, what is this on your phone here? What is this? Say bring all. Read this again bring all the teeths into this. Is this like baby teeth? I remember when I was growing up somebody told me about the tooth fairy. Is this like bring all the baby teeth into the storehouse? And thomas, you know, was like no, no, it's got nothing to do with babies.
Speaker 2:He explained what the tithe was through the law of moses and even predating the law of moses. And he explained these things and he said, ali, this isn't for you. This would be for a Jew, ideally, but since you are so bent on testing God, this is the one area he says test me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of heaven. So, ali, if you want to test my God, it would be like 10% of your paycheck here, according to this law. And he said but, ali, you might not be ready for that. I believe if you want to test my Jesus with $20, you'll see the windows of heaven open, just enough that you'll know my God is different than the God you believe. You know, I have to give it to Thomas, that fisherman. He had faith that, even for $20, god was going to show himself strong on behalf of Thomas, whose heart was loyal to him.
Speaker 1:And this wasn't 20% of your paycheck. This is just $20 of it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's saying if you want to test my Jesus with $20, he explained look, it would be either to a Jewish charity or a Christian church. If you want to test my Jesus with $20, I think you'll see the windows of heaven. I'm convinced you'll see them open enough. You'll know my God is different.
Speaker 2:Thomas was not overturning the law of Moses. He knew that all the law of Moses was to point to Christ. And so long as I'm talking about something in which the bait happens to be in the law of Moses, well, if I'm willing to bite on that bait, it's going to lead me to Christ, just like the whole law of Moses was supposed to. John says in the early New Testament. In the book of John, john says the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. These two are hand in hand. The both are supposed to point to Jesus as Lord. Sometimes theologians say the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. They're both pointing to Christ. I happen to bite on an Old Testament verse. No matter, thomas knew. Hey, I believe you'll see my God is different than yours and, by the way, his name is Jesus.
Speaker 2:So here's the deal, as I said okay, fine, so it's 10%, I'm going to do it. Do I give the money to you? And he goes no, I don't need your money. And I said, well, who do I give it to? And he goes a Christian charity, or church, or a Jewish charity, if you want to be according to the law of Moses. And he and I said okay, well, you go to a Christian church? He said I do. I said I'll give you the money. You take it to your church. And Thomas, seeing that I bit hard, pulled on the fishing line. He said why don't you bring it to our church? He pulled on that fishing line and, you know, thomas may seem like some kind of rock star evangelist in this story, but I promise you he's just a follower. The beauty of the story is not that thomas is doing so incredibly well, but that jesus is leading.
Speaker 2:If we have faith in him, we get to see him lead. And that's how he led thomas. So I said to thomas okay, fine, I'll bring it to your church. All proud like a Muslim, I said to him I'll bring it to your church, I'll prove to you. It's the same God, I just need a ride. And all my arrogance, I didn't have a car, I needed a ride.
Speaker 1:Still need the ride. Yep, oh, no. Now you're like oh great, I still have to get in the car with this guy while I'm trying to test his God Great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the Lord has such a sense of humor. You know, there's parts of that that like, for instance, my mom had raised me as a proud Muslim. I would have never admitted this to Thomas, but my mom had told me my son as a proud Muslim, as a proud Muslim, be an exemplary Muslim. Give one third, 33%, of your income to Islam and Allah. Well, when I had grown up to meet Thomas, at this point I was like man, 30%, 33% was always too much for me. But Thomas is telling me I can test God and show him he's wrong about jesus and do it at a discount rate. I get to do it at a deep discount, not 33, 10. Yeah, I was thinking like a wall street man, like I'll buy that bond, I'll buy that stock, right, and so I bit hard. Now this doesn't sound very pious. This isn't what I told thomas. I didn't tell him this whole humor story with my mother. And, by the way, we have since looked into islam's teachings per sect. There is no sect of islam that says give 33, where my mother came up with 33. Only jesus knows how did he use it? Yeah, beautifully, he used it.
Speaker 2:What did I say to thomas? I didn't tell him this, I wouldn't have appeared pious, saying hey, you know what? I could never cut it the standard my mom gave me for islam. So let me try the cheaper jewish standard. I was gonna say that I wanted to look better than jews. So I said to thomas thomas, twenty dollars, what do you mean? 20? You just explained to me it's 10, right? He said yes, it was. If it's 10 for jews, then it'll be 10% for me. I'm a Muslim. In other words, a Jew is no better than me. I'm not any worse than a Jew. You know, I was trying to appear more pious, but in fact I was less pious because I was looking for a discount concerning what my mom had taught me with Islam. So Thomas would give me a ride and take me to his church where I would tithe to test the God of Thomas and find out who he is.
Speaker 1:So you go to this church, and so what are you expecting in the church at this point?
Speaker 2:We arrive at Thomas's church, I don't know what to expect. Thomas says listen, just sit in the sanctuary. We're going to sing and make melody in our heart to the Lord and then, once that's done, you'll be able to tithe. I said, okay, so I sit down in the audience in the sanctuary. I'm just like one of a few people there. The rest go on stage to practice their singing and make melody in their heart to the Lord. It's a midweek meeting, it's not even a Sunday, it's in the middle of the week. There's hardly anybody in the audience as they're practicing their singing, but as they sing, there was a presence and power in that room. That was glorious and, as a Muslim, the Lord was showing that to me. That look, their singing has a presence and power.
Speaker 2:And yet, for all my observing and being in wonder about it, I couldn't put my finger on what it was. You know, I ended up just concluding. These, these people, they must be the best singers in the world. They must be the best musicians in the world. I can't put my finger on how this is so incredible when they don't sing any better than you and I or whoever's church that is tuning, and they don't sing any better than you. But it was the lord who was in their presence, that gave to it all its marvel and majesty that I observed. Yet I could not put my finger on the lord. That was the reason, and so I said they must just be incredible singers.
Speaker 2:I was in awe looking around. I remember looking behind me in the sanctuary like why aren't people here? People should be seeing this. This is incredible. And in my Wall Street thoughts I may have thought they should have sold tickets to this event, you know. So here's what happens is they finish their singing, thomas comes off the stage. They come off the stage and Thomas comes up to me and he goes hey, what'd you think of that kind of in private? Just he and I, and I said, ah, hey, man, you can sing. I didn't know that. Like, why am I behaving this way?
Speaker 2:A moment prior I thought these are the best musicians and singers in the world. I'm feeling this awesome, incredible power of the presence of God and I can't even describe it. And now I'm like nah, and the lesson here is that fishermen must be careful. Fish don't encourage fishermen, they just don't. You never find a fisherman that says look at the catch of fish I got today. My boat is full. And you say, well, what happened, mr Fisherman? Well, I went to the seashore and they were cheering me on. They were jumping into the boat. That's not what fish do they don't cheer on fish Right.
Speaker 2:And neither do you see a fisherman come back from the seashore with nothing you know, dragging an empty fishnet, like Linus dragging his blanket on the Christmas special of Charlie Brown. You never see that and say, hey, man, what happened? Why'd you come back without any fish? You don't hear the fishermen say well, I left because the fish weren't happy to see me. Fish, do not encourage fishermen. We got to be looking unto Jesus, the one we're following. In fact, one of the practical lessons is, if you're going to follow someone, you better keep your eyes on them. Then you won't lose them. Neither will you be discouraged at the distractions such as fish who refuse to encourage you, and so I didn't give them any encouragement. They sat down. They had a post-worship and singing and praise meeting there. They took prayer requests. That was incredible to me. I remember always thinking you know, we pray as Muslims, not expecting to hear back.
Speaker 2:They actually take requests, as though God will answer what is going on here? That was a huge witness to me that there was some superior way of knowing God to Islam and it was the Christian way, where you can have a personal relationship with him. You can go boldly before the throne of grace by the blood of Jesus and make your request known. This was always a huge witness to me that Christians would take prayer requests. I'm like what in the world are they doing? They act like God is going to answer. So after they take prayer requests, I remember somebody grabbed a money tray or a money bag and passed it around and some of the saints there humbly put in some money into it and I remember it came to me and I still couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do. I look at Thomas as I'm holding the tray and he looks at me and gives me one of these wink wink expressions Like hello, come on, man, did you forget? He didn't say anything, just that silent wink communicated to me. I realized, oh, that's right, I came here to tithe tonight. I forgot. So I put the money into the money tray and I remember when I put that money in I thought to myself ever so arrogantly. That's the end of this Jesus business. It's costing me 10% of one paycheck after taxes, because I was a cheapskate 10% of one paycheck. And now at least I have bought the right to tell Thomas he's wrong. This will be the end of this Jesus business between Thomas and I.
Speaker 2:Well, I never got the chance to tell Thomas he's wrong. In my arrogance I had overlooked the power of God's word that it will not turn back void, that it will accomplish the purpose for which God had sent it. And it doesn't matter if it's Genesis, chapter 1, verse 1, or the final verse of Malachi or Revelation. Every verse is designed to point men to the glory of God in Jesus Christ. And I didn't realize that. Will a man rob God in Malachi? You've robbed me in tithes and offerings. God was using that to save my soul.
Speaker 2:I never got the chance to tell Thomas hey, thomas, I did what you asked. I did what the scripture said, test me in this. And no window of heaven was open to me. Thomas gave me a ride home and I was thinking to myself arrogantly, like a Muslim fish how long until I tell Thomas he's wrong? How long till I tell him hey, thomas, I did this and nothing happened. You see, you're wrong. Your God is the same as mine, it's all the same.
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking should I wait a week? Should I wait a two weeks period of time before I tell Thomas? Then I remember another thought setting in. You know, ali, if the windows of heaven could open for you and a blessing poured out, with room not enough to receive it, you would be blessed. I remember thinking to myself I'm broke, I want Thomas to be wrong, but I'm broke and I could use some money in my life. And then I'm like Ali no, don't think this way. Be a strong Muslim. Your mother raised you to be a strong Muslim. You need Thomas to be wrong, oh, but I'm broke. I could use some money and I would swim back and forth in my apartment between these two wavering opinions back and forth.
Speaker 2:And I think it's interesting, because Elijah stood before the prophets of Baal and Israel and said to the people of God how long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him. Elijah said to them If Baal is God, follow him Now. That's obviously for the Christian today. But it had an application for me. Even If Baal is God, follow him. Now, that's obviously for the Christian today, but it had an application for me even.
Speaker 2:Was Baal going to be my God or was it going to be the Lord? Well, I didn't know the Lord. So the Lord chose for me, if you will here, in the sense of making sure as I swam back and forth between these two opinions. I want Thomas to be wrong, but I need money. The Lord made sure I would land on my own greed for the sake of my salvation. What do I mean by that? Well, if I wanted Thomas to be wrong, I was trying to render God's word of no effect and prove Malachi and Thomas wrong. But if I said, well, I need the windows of heaven opened because I'm broke, I'm willing to leave room for God's word to be right, even if it's out of my evil, sordid and wicked love for money. So the Lord led and I decided okay, maybe Thomas can be right for once, but I need money. I'm stuck in hillbilly land. This isn't how you become the wealthiest Muslim that ever lived.
Speaker 2:And I remember this whole time I was thinking about a company out in New York that owed me $4,000 plus in unpaid wages. I remember thinking about that company, thinking. You know what I put in the work. They didn't pay me. I complained, they didn't pay me. I actually had to file a case months before I met Thomas to complain officially with the New York State Department of Labor. I filed the case. I gave them all these affidavits, eyewitness testimonies on signed papers from customers. All of them said this employee named Ali has done the work for this company and so I could prove to the New York State Department of Labor I did the work.
Speaker 2:They didn't pay me for all that. I couldn't get that money. In fact it became impossible to me. Despite giving the New York State Department of Labor a case open and shut, I couldn't get that money. I would call the New York State Department of Labor telling them what more do you need? Did you get all that paperwork? They'd say yes. I'd say what more do you need? Finally, they told me we need one more thing from you, sir, stop calling us. And I remember thinking okay, you tell me. And I told the lady okay, you tell me when to call you. Do I call you in a month, a week, a year, two weeks, three years, five years? You tell me. And she goes maybe never, sir. And that shattered any hope I had left that the New York State Department of Labor's official response to me for a case of unpaid wages was maybe never. Now I don't want to be picking too much on state bureaucracies.
Speaker 2:This was God at work, permitting the situation and circumstances to be so dire and desperate for me that I would have to go to God for a miracle. You know, when they followed Jesus, it says two verses later, after they left their nets and followed him, it says that Jesus went up out of all Galilee teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all kinds of sickness, all kinds of disease among the people. Then his fame went throughout all Syria. They brought to him all sick people who were afflicted. See here's people coming for a miracle. Jesus was teaching in their synagogues. Thomas was teaching me in my house, my synagogue. Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Thomas was preaching the gospel of the kingdom but there's a third part to that and healing all kinds of sickness, all kinds of disease among the people. My sickness became the dire hopelessness of getting the $4,000 in unpaid wages in enter Jesus for the miracle into my life.
Speaker 2:I remember that night deciding what if Thomas could be right about Malachi. I need that money, that's what I'm settling on, and it was my love of money, but it was my needing of a miracle that caused me to have to go to Jesus. I remember thinking to myself I'm never going to see this money. Even if I'm willing for Thomas to be right for once, I'll still never see the windows of heaven open. I don't believe in this. Like Thomas does, like this guy is convinced the windows of heaven will open and I'll see a blessing poured out. I don't have faith like that. I need to do something. I need to make sure maybe I make God a business offer or something. But how do I do this? You know, we got to be careful Fishermen. We never know when a fish has come to the surface of the water and is eavesdropping.
Speaker 2:And I remember when I was listening to these other fishermen talk, when I was hanging out with Thomas, one had said to another when we really go to war as Christians, we go into our closet and we pray. We don't pick up a gun or a knife in the closet. That's where the battles won. So I remember thinking if I need a miracle from the god of malachi, if, if the windows of heaven are going to be open, if something's going to happen, I need to go before god in the manner of malachi. And apparently from my eavesdropping the other day with thomas, that means I need to go into the closet. So this is so funny I go into my closet literally and I kneel down. And this is not me kneeling, facing east toward Mecca. This is like me trying to figure out, groping in the dark, trying to figure out what is the manner of Malachi and what is the manner of Thomas. So here it is, I'm in the closet and I think what do I call God according to Malachi? Uh, uh or God. I suppose you know why I'm here. I suppose you know I've come for that $4,000. For the New York State Department of Labor said they'll do nothing. They said maybe never is what they said. So I've given up on that money. So I've come to make you an offer If you get that money for me, I'll give you half of it. Is that a good deal for you? And I was silent there in the closet. I didn't hear anything back and I wasn't expecting it. As a Muslim, I never expect to hear anything back. And I didn't hear anything back and I thought, well, I made my offer to God and I came out of that closet. I thought that's weird, you know. And later on I would think to myself man, I didn't know. Christians pray in closets. How long in my life have I walked by closets and, unbeknownst to me, there was secretly a Christian praying inside. And yet here it was. God was working.
Speaker 2:That week the phone rang. It was the New York State Department of Labor calling me for the first time and I said to them yes. And they said is this Ali, so-and-so? I said yes. They said are you still at such and such address in New York, new York? I said no. They said where are you? I said I'm outside of Omaha. I'm in Nebraska, just outside of Omaha, a suburb here of Omaha.
Speaker 2:And the lady goes what are you doing out there, you know, and I thought she's going to make fun of me. I thought it's going to be like my old boss on Wall Street. She's going to say have you become a hillbilly yet? What's going on, that's dangerous out there. I didn't know what she was going to say. So I said, lady, what, this one doesn't make, what I'm doing out here, why are you calling? And she goes well, we need an up-to you, a check. I said no, I couldn't get the words out. I was so shocked. I thought to myself no way. The next thing that came out of my mouth was something like can I ask how much it is? And she says sure, she looks through some papers. She says here it is. You're getting a check for $8,000 and change.
Speaker 2:And I froze in my footsteps, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all kinds of sickness, all kinds of disease among the people. The Lord Jesus healed me of the missing $4,000. In that moment I wasn't thinking of Matthew 4. That's for the Christians today. In that moment I had a eureka moment. I saw a light bulb, if you will, in my mind's eye. There was a eureka moment. I saw a light bulb, if you will. In my mind's eye. There was a eureka moment and that light bulb thought that accompanied my eureka moment was this is the god of thomas and malachi. That was the eureka moment I have. So, oh my word, I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 2:And then doubt set in the scriptures tells us. But some doubted and I doubted. Right after my Eureka light bulb moment, I said, lady, I waited all this time and you got the wrong case. They don't owe me that much money. And she goes. Well, let me call you back. She calls me back. She goes. Is this your address? I said yes, she goes your old address. I said yes, she goes. Is this your case number? I said yes, she goes. She goes your old address. I said yes, she goes. Is this your case number? I said yes, she goes. That's a unique case number. That settles it. This is your case. Here's what happened. These people didn't pay you unpaid wages. We looked at your case. It was a case open and shut. We ruled judgment in your favor. She should have said Jesus ruled judgment in your favor.
Speaker 1:So she goes. We ruled judgment in your favor.
Speaker 2:Right, so she goes. We rule judgment in your favor and all we need is an up-to-date address. But here's the deal the $4,000, or as little as $4,000, we penal were calculating 18% interest. She said annually compounded monthly. Your $4,000, or whatever it was, is now $8,000, and change it's been many months.
Speaker 2:I about fell out of my chair while I was standing up. I about fell over, and I remember thinking this is insane. This lady's explained to me how this money has just basically doubled, and I remember that I gave to her my address. They mailed me a check. I had all these doubts. This can't be happening. No, nothing like this ever happens, no way. Sure enough, $8,000 comes in the mail and, in a rare moment of a fish conceding and admitting, I went to Thomas and I studied his face intently because, for all that I was admitting, I wanted to see would he be as shocked and surprised as me?
Speaker 2:If he was, then I could write it off as hey, maybe our God is still the same. He's just as shocked as I am. But no, thomas smiled, he laughed, but he was not surprised. He was saying things like yeah, ali, I believe it, that's my Jesus. You see, would that you would know him.
Speaker 2:And Thomas, furthermore, went into teaching in their synagogues preaching the gospel of the kingdom Matthew 4, 23. He said, ali, by the way, what did you say to God in the closet? That you would give him half. Do you understand what's happened? My God has given you 8,000, which is twice as little as the four you thought you would get. So you can give God half and suffer no loss. And you think that I would be like, yeah, I knew that I'm a wall street guy. Nope, my reaction inwardly was like, oh, this guy is right. This is a direct, definitive answer to what I prayed in the closet. How did I miss it?
Speaker 2:Well, fish are underwater, you know. Everything flies over their head, and there's a doctrinal lesson there. In corinthians, paul says these things are spiritually discerned. The carnal man cannot understand the things of god. So it's incumbent upon us, as fishermen, to explain the most fundamental, elementary things that we might think. The fish certainly sees it. No, make it clear to them. The word must still be preached. Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, called these two brothers. They followed him. Then he goes about all Galilee, making everything clear, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all kinds of sickness, all kinds of disease among the people. That was the first miracle I saw in Jesus' name, not the last.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was an impossible circumstance that God was able to shine through, that he was able to do something for even a person that didn't necessarily wholeheartedly believe in this Jesus, you know, and that's just a testament to who he is and what he does.
Speaker 2:So one of the things Thomas said to me was this fact that God had doubled the money. And this, this was a shock to me. You know it's like well, this guy came from Wall Street. Two times four is eight, doesn't he know? Well, this is a spiritual thing. Thomas explained that. And then Thomas said and Ali, what are you going to do with God's 4,000? Now, he wasn't looking for it for himself. Even before, when I tied, he wouldn't take the money. He told me, tied to his church, and I had, or tied to any church and I had, or a Christian or Jewish church or charity, and I had. He didn't want that money. He was concerned about what I was going to do with the miracle that had happened. And he was right. God had doubled the money from four to eight and I had, in great greed, kept all of it. God, in great grace, had doubled it. I, in great greed, had kept it.
Speaker 2:And this is where we become discouraged. And you know, I've seen, when I tell this story to audiences, I see them just sink in their chairs and and and let out a a sigh like that. And I understand it. You know the fish goes and squanders the whole miracle. But why are we surprised when we find out fish stink? That a good point that's the part of the business of fish is they stink. In fact, fish will not stop stinking till they get caught, come out of the water and are cleaned. If anyone's gone fishing they know yeah, you catch a fish, do not wait, clean that fish. And cleaning fish is what we would call discipleship. And it can be dirty business. Helping them shed the old man and all its dirty discipleship. And it can be dirty business helping them shed the old man in all its dirty parts. Right, and it's all by faith in christ and by grace.
Speaker 2:So anyway, here's the story is, thomas was worried I would squander and not keep my word, and the great irony is that passage with malachi actually starts with will a a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say in what way have we robbed you, god? Have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings? You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed me, even this whole nation. If I was going to be under the law of Moses at this point, I would be cursed. The thing is I wasn't trying to practice the law of Moses. Jesus was trying to save my soul. That's what was happening here. I wasn't trying to take up the whole law of Moses, I was just looking for money. I had come to Jesus for a miracle, and Jesus, who had gone about all Galilee, preaching, teaching and doing all kinds of miracles among the people, was working. So here's the deal Even though I'm sure it broke God's heart that I kept his $4,000, it wasn't going to change God's character.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter how bad the fish stinks. Fish can't change Jesus. Jesus catches them and changes them. That's the order of thanks, you know. There was disappointment, though, and we will face disappointment in evangelism, and thomas was facing it here. With me squandering the miracle, jesus faced disappointment. He healed 10 lepers on the road. One came back to give thanks, and that that's the master. We are the servant following him. If Jesus faced disappointment with the 10 lepers to the tune of 90%, what kind of disappointment should we expect not to see? We're going to see it at 90% or worse. That's okay, though. He says follow me and I will make you fishers of men, and he was going to do that despite my squandering the miracle. And today, in great glory to God, I can confess to you as a Christian that, though I was a Muslim robbing God of his $4,000, he would continue to work through Thomas's teaching, the preaching of the gospel, and he would even, in great grace, do more miracles till I would believe in Jesus' name.
Speaker 1:We will fast forward a bit, because there was something pretty catastrophic that happened in your life. It was a fire of your apartment building in Omaha, and so can you tell us a little bit about that and what happened in that story, in that miracle?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Something fish tend to do is store up treasures on earth where thieves break in and steal. Jesus says to the believer store up treasures in heaven where thieves cannot break in and steal, and moth and dust do not collect. Well, I had stored up treasures in heaven where thieves cannot break in and steal and moth and dust do not collect. Well, I had stored up treasures in my little apartment. I had put there a playstation, I put there a flat screen tv, I put there also a computer tower I had built with my own hands and a laptop.
Speaker 2:And one night there was a fire. Why? Because what shall it benefit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? So a fire broke out. The Lord was going to deprive me of these tangible belongings that I might lay hold of Jesus. Sometimes people say you know, give up the things you can't keep, get the thing you can't lose. It's Jesus right. And so the Lord was going to take these things away.
Speaker 2:And in the fire, because of the massive amounts of water that were poured into the apartment, I ended up losing my stuff in the fire to water damage, severe water damage, and I wouldn't be able to repair it. I mean, we're talking. Tons of water would come out of these devices when you tip them over, like a little waterfall would come out of them. That's how much water damage they had suffered. The computer tower had been submerged, the rest of them utterly drenched with water and you could pour water out of them with the amount of water that was in them. So here's the deal is.
Speaker 2:Over the coming next few days I would move out of my apartment where the fire was. That building would be condemned, and there's a lot of spiritual lessons there that the building was condemned. That's the whole point is, if you're unsaved, you are condemned. If your household is unsaved, your household, your house, is condemned. And condemned is synonymous with being thrown into the lake of fire one day. It runs hand in hand. I needed to get saved. So here's what happened is the Lord would do miracles on my stuff. Jesus was healing all kinds of sickness, all kinds of disease among the people, and he would even heal my electronics. It's really difficult to believe and yet there are people who know this happened in my testimony. What would happen is the laptop, and I'll tell the story.
Speaker 2:I had a friend come from the East Coast to visit. He's all into conspiracy theories and he would come stay in my new apartment, in which I had no furniture I'd only brought the electronics over. All the furniture had mold damage. I'd left it in the old, condemned building. And this guy came to stay with me. He had to sleep on the floor. I didn't even have a bed or a couch for him to sleep on. I had one bed for myself that folded out of the wall. It was that kind of old style studio apartment.
Speaker 2:Well, I went to work and as I go to work, he gets woken up by God. Now what he says is he feels like rays from outer space woke him up. He doesn't know, he can't say an audible voice or anything. He didn't have a dream or a vision, but he knows that rays he would tell you, rays from outer space woke him up and he knew what he was to do, which was cook my laptop. Now I would learn about this when I would come home and my laptop is working, when I previously I couldn't fix it, and I said what did you do to this? His name was al. I said al, what would come home and my laptop is working, when previously I couldn't fix it and I'd say what did you do to this? His name was Al. I said Al, what did you do to my laptop? How did you get it to work? And he goes well.
Speaker 2:You went to work and these rays from outer space woke me up and I knew what I was to do. I was to cook it. I said cook my laptop. I turn over the. He's cooked it. I said how did you cook a laptop? He goes well. You didn't have anything left from the fire except things that couldn't be burned. You had a frying pan, you had a ceramic bowl. I put the frying pan on the stove, I put the ceramic bowl on the frying pan, I put the laptop on the ceramic bowl on the frying pan on the stove and I cooked it on low for 12 hours. And he's like the crockpot recipe for for a laptop. Yeah, and this guy had never done this before. And I was like are you serious? He's like yeah, it works. It works and raised from outer space. And the raised from outer space, he has a name for it. He calls it ESP. And I was like what? What are you saying ESP? And he goes raised from outer space and and I was like no, al, the Lord is using you.
Speaker 1:Now this is remarkable, Interesting that.
Speaker 2:I, as an unbeliever, had so heavily been witnessed to by Thomas and others that I would correct this guy and tell him it's not raised from outer space, it's the Lord. And why would I even use the word the Lord, since I hadn't believed on Jesus as Lord. Right, jesus went about all Galilee teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and that's exactly what had happened in my story. Thomas had taught me enough that I knew to tell Al it's the Lord using you. Now I had given my PlayStation to one of my neighbors from Africa to fix. It was a collector's edition PlayStation. He had given up fixing it. He said I opened it, everything was wet. I voided your warranty by opening it, couldn't fix it. I'm so sorry. And he tried to give it back. I said well, you keep it, maybe one day you can fix it. I can't do anything to it. I went to his apartment, knocked on his door. He opens the door. I said Eve, don't tell me, my laptop is working. And Eve goes how did you know? It was a beautiful, beautiful accent from Burkina Faso, africa. He goes how did you know? And I said tell me what you did. And he says when we were bored. We went to my friend's house and we took his leaf blower in his father's shed, brought it out, set your playstation on the ground leaf blower next to it and blew air on your playstation for three to five hours. And now it works. I said have you ever done that before? He goes no. And so there's the PlayStation working, the laptop fixed by Al.
Speaker 2:I go back to Al. And Al has covered my TV, the flat screen TV that had a waterfall that previously came out of it when I had gone into the building after the fire trucks were done. There was a waterfall that came out of it when I, when I had gone into the building after the fire trucks were done, there was a waterfall that came out of that tv. And so here's this tv. Al has brought it inside, covered it with a sheet when it was covered in soot. I take the sheet off. He's painstakingly cleaned all the soot off of it while I was at work.
Speaker 2:I said you don't have to do this. So he goes, it works. I said no way. He goes, esp, you know ESP. I said no way. And so we argued there together and he goes, he goes, turn it on, turn it on. I'm telling you it works. I turned it on and that TV worked. And I said well, what did you do? You can't cook a flat screen TV on the stove. How did you do this? And he goes ESP told me, put your finger on the power button, hold it there for two minutes and it turned on. These stories are crazy and it's like listening to this a person has to wonder like how could this be? But I have a question what would God not do outside of sin to save somebody? This stuff turned me on to Jesus being powerful enough to fix even electronics.
Speaker 2:And it was huge. And here's the deal, if we think well, you know, he did use the stove, he did use that. Well, okay, you call the laptop repair shop. Yeah, your laptop's broken. See if they say to you well, did you cook it yet for 12 hours? You know, did you air blow the PlayStation with your father's leaf blower from the shed for three to five hours?
Speaker 2:Nobody recommends these tactics for fixing stuff. Did you put your finger on the power button for two minutes because ESP and rays from outer space told you to no? But these are not the ways of man. They're the ways of man, they're the ways of God. In the same chapter where he promises his word will not turn back void but accomplish the purpose that pleases him, in that same chapter of Isaiah he says for my ways are not your ways, nor are my thoughts your thoughts. And Jesus had ways of doing miracles, such as spitting and mud and rubbing it together, anointing their eyes with mud, ways you could not duplicate and replicate. Whoever tried to imitate Jesus by doing that afterward had mud in their eyes and their blindness remained. It was not about these ways. The common denominator in every miracle was only Jesus. That's it and faith in him. That was the way to miracle. Why? Why? Because that's the common denominator in every person that will be in heaven for eternity Only Jesus and faith in Him. Therefore, that is the way to every miracle.
Speaker 2:And I had mentioned there was a computer tower that I built with my own hands that got the worst of all the fire and water damage. It was submerged a good amount, we don't know. We weren't in the building when the water came, but when we went after the fire was put out and waded through water ankle deep and I found that computer tower submerged, partially submerged. I can only imagine how submerged it was. There was so much junk char, charcoal, wood, soot and all this garbage in that computer tower in it. From the fan holes all this junk had gone in and so I had put that thing into storage. It stank to high. Heaven did not want to touch it.
Speaker 2:When these miracles happened, I as a Muslim thought Al says ESP, I can't be. And Eve used the leaf blower Like this is miraculous. What about that computer tower? I brought it out, put it on a concrete stoop outside my apartment with a outlet right there. On that concrete stoop, one of those outdoor outlets, I plugged it in, put a monitor on it and a keyboard, hit the power button on that computer tower without doing anything to it. No cooking on the stove, nothing, no leaf blower. I hit the power button. Boop, boop, boop, boop. Windows logon screen appears Enter your username and password.
Speaker 2:It was a total miracle of Jesus. I would use that computer tower for years afterward. I would use that playstation for a season afterward. I would use that playstation on the night I got saved. I would use that laptop and eventually mail it to my sister. She would have it for a season. And that television is still being used today by a born-again Christian household in Iowa who has inherited it to the grace of Jesus. Every time I look at that TV, visiting that Christian family, I say this is a miracle TV and God used it to save my soul.
Speaker 1:Oh, man. And this isn't the only types of miracles Jesus does. Let's get into what he really does and the true, true miracle. Not to say that any of those things aren't miracles, but the biggest miracle of all is when he brings you to repentance, when he finally reconciles you to himself.
Speaker 2:Amen, jesus taught. Believe me, me, he said. And then he said believe me on account of the scriptures. There was one part where he said if you don't believe in moses's writings, how are you going to believe me? And it was another part. He said believe me on account of the works themselves. So the whole point of the works, the miracles he did, was to believe in him. Well, here came October 23, 2010,.
Speaker 2:A good two and a half years after I had met Thomas, and I remember thinking I've only run into Christians all over the place in Omaha at this point. For the time I'd been there, all the friends I had made, all the people that I had known the closest, happened to be Christian at this point and I've thought to myself it's like everybody's Christian here. It's not safe. I'm not going to go out today. And I just stayed inside my apartment. I decided I'm going to watch Netflix. I turn on that miracle PlayStation, on that miracle TV, and I turn on the Netflix app on that PlayStation and I go into Netflix and right at the top it said Suggested for Ali the Gospel of John. And I looked at that. It's suggesting the Gospel of John for me, you know, and it's like looking back on it. My profile name on my Netflix account was Ali. That's a Muslim name. What's wrong with the Netflix algorithm? Jesus is working his promise Follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
Speaker 2:And so here's what happened. I decided, you know what, I'll just hit play, and if it's any good, I'll keep watching, and if not, I'll just watch something else. I hit play In the beginning was the word. I hit play In the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God. And I remember just being glued to the TV and it was a video Bible of John. You know it's like you think, hey, is it any good? I'll keep watching. Oh, it's good.
Speaker 1:It's the word of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, I'll keep watching. Oh, it's good, it's the word of God. You know, I often say the Bible is the written incarnation of Jesus Christ. And so here I am, watching the screen of video Bible played out, acted out by these actors, and it just so happened that, like the actor who happens to play Jesus was an actor I cared for. It's like the way the Lord orchestrated this. There was already a soft spot in my heart, but it was ultimately the word of God that broke through. And so here's the deal as I watched that film and I never got to the crucifixion that night when they beat Jesus, the Holy Spirit's conviction fell square on my heart. I remember weeping uncontrollably as this film was playing in front of me. And here's the beauty of the story coming full circle.
Speaker 2:We began with Galilee of the Gentiles. Jesus heard John had been put in prison. He departed to Galilee, leaving Nazareth. He came and dwelt in Capernaum, just by the sea, the regions of Zebulun, naphtali. That was the Galilee of leaving Nazareth. He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, the regions of Zebulun, naphtali. That was the Galilee of the Gentiles. It said, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death. Light has dawned In that bedroom.
Speaker 2:That night, in my room I had turned the lights off, as I always do when I watch a movie. The only light on was the light on that television the Bible, the Gospel of John. As I sat on my bed, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light as I watched that TV and I wept as the Holy Spirit cut me to the heart, doing his pre-salvation ministry, convicting me though I did not know he even exists. The Holy Spirit Couldn't see him, couldn't receive him. He does his pre-salvation ministry to the world John 16. He convicted me of my sins, of Jesus's righteousness and of judgment. And he's ascended and we see him no more. And I remember weeping, not knowing why, not knowing any of these things, weeping, thinking why are they beating this Jesus on this screen? He's done nothing wrong. He's done nothing wrong. I had no idea. My thoughts were like the thoughts of the thief on the cross who said we, indeed, justly, are receiving the due reward of our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong, he said of Jesus. I had no idea I was on the same track to get saved. So that night I paused that film, weeping. I couldn't continue.
Speaker 2:I reached with my arm under the bed, pulled out a box from my days with Thomas and out of the darkness under the bed in that dark bedroom, out of that box came a Bible from my days with Thomas. I opened the Bible. I had a sheet of paper from Dan, another guy who'd witnessed to me, who we didn't talk about today, and I went into that Bible according to the instructions Dan had put on the sheet of paper. He said go to Romans 3, go to Romans 6, go to Romans 10. I went through Romans road and at the end I wrestled with God. But what does it say? It says the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. That is this word of faith which we preach that if you confess with your mouth Christ is Lord and believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Speaker 2:And I remember I wrestled with God there, thinking I can't say Jesus is Lord. I'm a Muslim. But a most beautiful thought occurred to me what if this is all I have ever known, islam? And where I'm kneeling today, on my bedroom floor? What if where I'm kneeling is all I've ever known? What if I'm supposed to stand on these words, on this Bible, on the ground, here in my bedroom? What if I'm supposed to take a step onto these words and stand on them? What if it'll be different if I stand there? And it wasn't a physical thing, it was a spiritual thing. The Holy Spirit was convicting me. Why don't you step onto the sure rock and foundation of Jesus Christ? All other ground, including Islam, is sinking sand On Christ, the solid rock. I stand, we sing in the hymn and so I remember.
Speaker 2:I decided I want to know. I want to know if it's different. And I'm weeping, tears are falling in the Bible and I say with my mouth Christ is Lord and believe in my heart. God has raised him from the dead and I'm saved. And when I got up that evening from off my knees, the Bible says I stood up. A new creation. Not a fisherman around, not Thomas, not Dan, not Kevin, all these other people who were witnessing to me, not one of them around. And yet, in all their absence, the arm of the Lord was not darkened and was not shortened such that it could not save. And in the darkness of that bedroom I saw a great light and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death light dawned and I got saved that night in Jesus name.
Speaker 1:It's just cool to hear just what he's done, even before you knew him, of how he's drawing you, and I just thought you know, miracles are never promised, but Jesus does what is needed to get us to repentance and into right relationship with him. He will do anything for his own for the people that he knows are going to turn to him and live it out for him. And so what do you do now then? Ollie, I know you follow Jesus, I know all that, but what are you doing now to continue to be that light for him in your daily walk, in your career, things like that?
Speaker 2:So I got saved on a Saturday night and I remember that first Sunday I didn't go to church night. And I remember that first Sunday I didn't go to church. Then the Christians heard that Saturday night I got saved. I had texted them. They called me Sunday. They called me that night too, and they called me Sunday. They said you got to start going to church. They took me to church.
Speaker 2:I was heavily discipled. They really poured a lot of their Christian walk and the things they do. They poured a lot of that, poured, poured their heart into me, poured the scriptures into me and in within seven years or so after my salvation, I was called into full-time ministry. Wow, that's how heavily and really sacrificially they spent time with me and discipled me. And so my wife and I have been in ministry over eight years now, roughly, or about eight years now, and we travel. I preach the word Obviously when I first show up at any church as a guest. This is the message they want to hear is the first one the gospel, my testimony and how it saved me, and the gospel of Matthew. And then there's other teachings, there's other scriptures that I preach on and teach on, and occasionally we'll do a workshop on witnessing to Muslims and so forth. So we're in full-time ministry. I've been for eight years and I just look back and often remember, man, I was going to hell. Thank God Jesus saved me, and so I'm just very grateful for where we are today.
Speaker 1:As we end here, what is the advice you would give anyone listening that wants to go out and, I guess, tell people more about Jesus.
Speaker 2:Follow him. You know, thomas was surprised. Dan, the other people who were witnessing to me, they were all surprised the night I got saved and they heard about it and they didn't see it coming. You know, their response to me was we didn't think you were even close and I didn't think I was close. You know, if you think about it, fish probably don't know they're about to get caught. You know, if they did they wouldn't bite on the bait.
Speaker 2:So I do believe God gives men a choice, men and women a choice to believe or reject him. But I don't think they know that they're getting close to getting saved or not. Usually they don't know and I didn't know. So the encouragement I would give to you is get out there. You know we look at it too much in a results-based system that I'm not seeing people saved. So it's a struggle, it's a hassle to follow, to emulate these things, but we have to remember that the Lord is able to save to the uttermost and he is the one who gives a promise. The two words he gives are follow me as a command. The rest are eight words. I believe and I will make you fishers of men. That's eight words of a promise. Two words are our responsibility. Follow me. Eight words are our responsibility. Follow me. Eight words are his responsibility. I don't know about you, but I can't make anyone a fisher of men and I can't even make the fish get caught. Yeah, but he can do all that If I just focus on following preaching, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus can do all kinds of healings, all kinds of sickness among the people, healing all these things, and he can make of us fishers of men. He did it with the 12 and he's been doing it ever since.
Speaker 2:I had the great honor of seeing my wife eventually came to the lord. She got saved long before we dated. Then I dated her, then we got married. She had the honor, and I together, of seeing her mom come to the lord. Her mom went in, is russian, she went into the forests of russia, led her sister to the lord, and the family of god goes on and on. The thing about following is there will be a payoff. Peter said we left all to follow you. What will we then therefore have? And Jesus effectively tells him in that Matthew 19 passage that you will inherit a hundredfold, in this age and in the age to come eternal life. There is a payoff. I'm seeing it in my life. I got saved. I see the payoff of those who followed. My wife got saved, my mom-in-law got saved, her sister got saved and my family not yet. But God is not finished. I'm still following. He's still making of us a fisher of men.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, Ollie, for your time today, and just thank you for telling all those details and just giving us encouragement at the end, and I'm just praying for more and more opportunities for you to share this with many, many other people, and I pray, too, that this would go to the right person to hear and they would have questions afterwards, and I really do believe that somebody will. So thank you so much for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. Thanks for having us on.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. As you go about your week, remember that Jesus changes lives, including yours. Let today's story inspire you to live it out and give him glory in all you do. Until next time.
